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djohnson1974
Advanced Contributer
United Kingdom
406 Posts |
 Posted - 14/06/2012 : 00:05:54
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I know questions get asked about tuning with monotonous regularity but I'd like to be the latest to ask for benefit of peoples experience.
Is it possible to get a nice tight batter on a tom to make it play fast but still maintain a warm, deep tone. If so what combination of heads and tuning would it take?
Ta Peeps, |
"Can you count to 4? Then you're in the band!" |
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Yard
Advanced Contributer
Uzbekistan
5234 Posts |
Posted - 14/06/2012 : 08:24:38
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Yes...
Tuning is a combination of sound and stick response that suits the individual.
Head choice I'll leave to Jeff Davenport as he likes talking about all that sort of stuff!! |
Shut it and whack the poxy things!
www.vintagedrumyard.co.uk
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Dave S
Advanced Contributer
United Kingdom
5359 Posts |
Posted - 14/06/2012 : 09:01:47
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If you want a tight batter but a relatively low pitch (at least to the tension of the batter head), then you might want to consider double ply batter heads, possibly even double ply resonant heads, too.
The reso head is mainly responsible for pitch, so you can probably achieve this with single ply heads too, but it might be easier with doubles.
...I think! |
davesmyth.co.uk | soundcloud | facebook | twitter |
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Captain Bubble
Advanced Contributer
United Kingdom
14648 Posts |
Posted - 14/06/2012 : 09:11:34
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If you want warmth then Remo Vintage Ambassadors are very nice. They have an Ambassador weight top ply and a snare-side/reso weight bottom ply, more life than other 2 ply heads. Warmer still are Remo Skyntone heads, I love these, but they are designed to mimic Vellum and have less impact than normal plastic heads, which might not suit all players. If you get a chance to go along to one of Jeff's Drum Tuning Workshops I highly recommend them. great guy, explains well, and you will be able to make good comparisons and learn about tuning, look on this forum for dates.
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Marcus de Mowbray
www.330studios.co.uk/marcus |
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Moresushinow
Very Active Contributer
Brazil
119 Posts |
Posted - 14/06/2012 : 09:29:31
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| Then you flip on the snare and it starts to buzz every time you hit the tom and all the theories go out of the window |
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moosetication
Advanced Contributer
United Kingdom
12066 Posts |
Posted - 14/06/2012 : 09:32:00
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quote:
Originally posted by Moresushinow
Then you flip on the snare and it starts to buzz every time you hit the tom and all the theories go out of the window
No, they don't. |
"It's just a rest, no need to complicate it with monkeys." - sunshinehead
SITMS #31/582 (B'ham) #31/798 (M'cr) | The Blue Road | Jive Honey |
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Unkle Kev
Advanced Contributer
United Kingdom
1429 Posts |
Posted - 14/06/2012 : 10:18:04
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| I was taught that more mass means a higher fundamental pitch, so thinner heads would allow a deeper pitch at higher tension. Like most things in drumming, it will surely prove to be a load of cobblers! I'm interested if we get a definitive answer as I have the same curiosity. |
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Dave S
Advanced Contributer
United Kingdom
5359 Posts |
Posted - 14/06/2012 : 10:21:47
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quote:
Originally posted by Unkle Kev
I was taught that more mass means a higher fundamental pitch, so thinner heads would allow a deeper pitch at higher tension. Like most things in drumming, it will surely prove to be a load of cobblers! I'm interested if we get a definitive answer as I have the same curiosity.
I'm not sure - maybe Jeff's the man for this! I'm just going on my experience of using two ply heads on a snare - at a similar tension the double ply head seems to be lower pitched, I think... |
davesmyth.co.uk | soundcloud | facebook | twitter |
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dogface
Advanced Contributer
United Kingdom
901 Posts |
Posted - 14/06/2012 : 10:27:01
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quote:
Originally posted by Unkle Kev
I was taught that more mass means a higher fundamental pitch, so thinner heads would allow a deeper pitch at higher tension. Like most things in drumming, it will surely prove to be a load of cobblers! I'm interested if we get a definitive answer as I have the same curiosity.
More mass means a higher fundamental pitch? No, no, no! More mass means slower movement and lower pitch. Which are the high sounding strings on a guitar - that thick ones or the thin ones? |
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steveh
Advanced Contributer
Australia
5057 Posts |
Posted - 14/06/2012 : 10:43:59
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Naaaaaaahh! ya all wrong ya stooooopid bistarddddds!
PAINT THE INSIDE OF THE SHELLS, Mr Ludwig said so !
Ferk me!GEEEEEBZEE. |
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Yard
Advanced Contributer
Uzbekistan
5234 Posts |
Posted - 14/06/2012 : 10:53:09
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The best way to find out is to try different combinations until you are happy as someone else's idea of happiness is different to yours
It only takes a few minutes... |
Shut it and whack the poxy things!
www.vintagedrumyard.co.uk
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Captain Bubble
Advanced Contributer
United Kingdom
14648 Posts |
Posted - 14/06/2012 : 10:59:53
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| It is expensive to buy lots of different heads to try out, which again is the advantage of going to a DTW...it's free and he has a selection of heads for you to hear! |
Marcus de Mowbray
www.330studios.co.uk/marcus |
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Yard
Advanced Contributer
Uzbekistan
5234 Posts |
Posted - 14/06/2012 : 11:19:26
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There is a huge variety but I only ever use a few of them....
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Shut it and whack the poxy things!
www.vintagedrumyard.co.uk
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lee haydn
Advanced Contributer
United Kingdom
2035 Posts |
Posted - 14/06/2012 : 11:20:26
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| There's Evans Hydraulic's too, not a lot of sustain though, i used these when i had an old Pearl kit, i had that kit years because it sounded so well, i know the hydraulics won't suit some shells, as Marcus say's, it's very expensive to go through experimentations,, |
Ludwig Maple Classic (Green Sparkle) + L400
Sabian HH and Paiste Stanbul vintage
Pro' Racket |
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martydrums
Advanced Contributer
United Kingdom
6146 Posts |
Posted - 14/06/2012 : 11:58:17
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dj, if you can get a 16" floor tom to play like a snare and still sound like a floor tom I would like to know how you do it please.
One of the perennial difficulties about playing a drum kit is the different feel/response of the different drums within the one overall instrument. The really good drummers are often times ones who have got hands that cope with the different responses well and get good sounds from each individual tub. Another related aspect is the amount of welly required per tom to produce a balanced kit sound. Steve Smith springs to mind as someone how has this totally down. He will give his floor tom a good bit more welly than a wee tom in order to produce the same "level" of sound. |
Official Sugar Daddy of the forum's Sonor Delite appreciation society, as nominated by Jamoca - Honorary President Paul Brook
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Unkle Kev
Advanced Contributer
United Kingdom
1429 Posts |
Posted - 14/06/2012 : 12:20:02
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quote:
Originally posted by dogface
quote:
Originally posted by Unkle Kev
I was taught that more mass means a higher fundamental pitch, so thinner heads would allow a deeper pitch at higher tension. Like most things in drumming, it will surely prove to be a load of cobblers! I'm interested if we get a definitive answer as I have the same curiosity.
More mass means a higher fundamental pitch? No, no, no! More mass means slower movement and lower pitch. Which are the high sounding strings on a guitar - that thick ones or the thin ones?
This is where it gets interesting. The heavier of two cymbals of equal profile and diameter will have a higher pitch. I'm inclined to agree with you re heads as they are fixed around their edge so probably do behave more like guitar strings. |
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Wannabedrummer
Advanced Contributer
United Kingdom
777 Posts |
Posted - 14/06/2012 : 12:56:13
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Low pitch = long wavelengths of sound waves. High pitch = short wavelengths.
A thick cymbal cannot vibrate as freely as a thin cymbal, so a thin cymbal can vibrate in such a way as to produce longer sound wavelengths and produce more low tones. A thicker cymbal is preventedresticted from long vibrations because of the physical constraints in being thicker. So it tends to produce higher pitched tones. There is also the matter of how the things are hammered, the alloy used etc, so I suppose its not as cut and dried as I explain it. |
Tama (well, a badge on the bass), Zildjian, Grandad-made tambourine, Premier HD heads (8 years old now, and still going strong). Could do with lessons! http://s872.photobucket.com/albums/ab285/AnthonyOConnell/My%20Drum%20Kit/ |
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Dave S
Advanced Contributer
United Kingdom
5359 Posts |
Posted - 14/06/2012 : 13:22:07
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quote:
Originally posted by Wannabedrummer
Low pitch = long wavelengths of sound waves. High pitch = short wavelengths.
A thick cymbal cannot vibrate as freely as a thin cymbal, so a thin cymbal can vibrate in such a way as to produce longer sound wavelengths and produce more low tones. A thicker cymbal is preventedresticted from long vibrations because of the physical constraints in being thicker. So it tends to produce higher pitched tones. There is also the matter of how the things are hammered, the alloy used etc, so I suppose its not as cut and dried as I explain it.
That's the one! |
davesmyth.co.uk | soundcloud | facebook | twitter |
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DyeHouseDrumWorks
Excellent Contributer
United Kingdom
185 Posts |
Posted - 14/06/2012 : 17:25:14
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'Vintage' style heads would sound like a good option from this way too.
I guess this all stems from an old jazz/big band tone ideal, but a lot of those players used bigger drums - tuned higher.
I've always been impressed by the way the Aquarian heads achieve a playable sound and feel at extremely low tension - the Jack DeJohnette range paticularly. |
Dye House Drum Works. Find us on Facebook and at at: www.dyehousedrumworks.com |
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Yard
Advanced Contributer
Uzbekistan
5234 Posts |
Posted - 14/06/2012 : 17:31:34
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| and American Vintage from Aquarian |
Shut it and whack the poxy things!
www.vintagedrumyard.co.uk
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djohnson1974
Advanced Contributer
United Kingdom
406 Posts |
Posted - 14/06/2012 : 19:07:21
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| I spoke to Jeff Davenport at a tuning workshop a little while ago and ended up buying a set of vintage Es which really give me the tone I wanted but now I'm starting to play a little more technical stuff I wanted to keep that tone but tighten up the stick response. I've also got twin ply resos on (can't remember which brand) and wondered what tuning relationship between batter and reso would give the best compromise of fat warm tone and good stick response (I appreciate it will be a compromise!) |
"Can you count to 4? Then you're in the band!" |
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TimSharp
Advanced Contributer
United Kingdom
479 Posts |
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Tex
Advanced Contributer
United Kingdom
1585 Posts |
Posted - 14/06/2012 : 21:30:14
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I've always found stick response is not that affected by normal, ie medium, head tensions. To a degree, obviously. If you want a fat tone then you have to "build" one in using the various damping techniques.
Always though, as said, a heavier reso for a fatter, sweeter sound and all damping should be on the batter normally.
It is also true that old drummers used bigger drums tensioned high and even John Bonham and Simon Philips use that approach. Most of us though, have this thing called a "transport problem" so we use the more modern smaller kits and slacker toms. A good technique does help overcome (minor) lack of head feedback though. So more springy fingers might be needed on the toms.
Check out JoJo. SWFTMDrummer. See how he plays a sloppy pizza. |
Sitting on top of the mountain isn't the most interesting bit of the climb. Sitting at the bottom aint much fun either. |
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drumtuningworkshops
Advanced Contributer
United Kingdom
342 Posts |
Posted - 14/06/2012 : 23:15:16
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Yup Dj and all!
Yes they're quite heavy fellas those Vintage E's...
and at 15 mil thick plus a dose of coating, they have a low tone alright.
I am totally digging the Vintage A right now...toms, snares, whatever.
In '57 they only had 2 heads...a Diplomat type head and a snare head.
People were going through the Dip and the answer was to put the 3mil snare head they had with it...thus making a THIN twin ply head.
Its about 10.5 mil thick.
Ok...so tune it up...the plies stretch and "oh look", mid to high frequencies.
so tune it down...and everything relaxes...there's a bit of(space) now present between the plies and "oh look", fat low end.
Incredible head. Give it a whirl.
On the other subject...thickness and pitch is confusing...and with drum shells the pitch or sound goes up the thicker the shell.
BUT...this is not always the case if you counteract this with thicker heads and lower tuning...to lower the sound.
Its a minefield...and I can demonstrate this at the DTW's...I use my Sonor Phonic drum for it. (10-12mm beech)
So in answer DJ...from the Remo camp try some Vintage A's...with clear Ambs reso's for a bright aftertone, Coated Ambs reso's for a warmer aftertone...and Vintage A's reso's for serious bass on the floors!
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