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Originally posted by fatty

I would dearly love a classic Bonham sounding snare.
I've been told to forget getting a modern one and concentrate on finding a vintage.

Any advice on what I should be looking for and what age are the best?
Thanks

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quote:

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Originally posted by fatty

I would dearly love a classic Bonham sounding snare.
I've been told to forget getting a modern one and concentrate on finding a vintage.

Any advice on what I should be looking for and what age are the best?
Thanks

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Originally posted by neil lowe

a few months back i bought an ian paice signiture snare drum.....with mr.paice using a 402 back in the 70s, i came to the conclusion that it would be a modern equivalent.a very,very good snare drum,brand newbies are around £270.00,but look on e-bay for cheaper 2nd handers.the post about bonhams' tuning and technique etc. are very true.....millions have tried to sound like him,remember;all have failed.a one off,he really was.

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Originally posted by jon kelly

To be very honest i have a 1972 402 and a 2012 brand new, the new one sounds like, well a 402, but there is a subtle difference between old and new, if i had to be accurate i would say the older drums are slightly more responsive and the middle end characteristic frequency of the drum is deeper but ive noticed when you hit harder that Bonzo clonk seems to come out, so its there but not that evident, know what im getting at?? weird and hard to be precise, also the older 402s are a drier sound, however new ones are still great dont get hung up on em believe me i know, ive used em for years, they are still a brilliant snare drum.

quote:

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Originally posted by fatty

I would dearly love a classic Bonham sounding snare.
I've been told to forget getting a modern one and concentrate on finding a vintage.

Any advice on what I should be looking for and what age are the best?
Thanks

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Originally posted by alanharvey

quote:

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Originally posted by jon kelly

To be very honest i have a 1972 402 and a 2012 brand new, the new one sounds like, well a 402, but there is a subtle difference between old and new, if i had to be accurate i would say the older drums are slightly more responsive and the middle end characteristic frequency of the drum is deeper but ive noticed when you hit harder that Bonzo clonk seems to come out, so its there but not that evident, know what im getting at?? weird and hard to be precise, also the older 402s are a drier sound, however new ones are still great dont get hung up on em believe me i know, ive used em for years, they are still a brilliant snare drum.

quote:

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Originally posted by fatty

I would dearly love a classic Bonham sounding snare.
I've been told to forget getting a modern one and concentrate on finding a vintage.

Any advice on what I should be looking for and what age are the best?
Thanks

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I have two 1964 400s and side-by-side they sound very much alike (but not identical) when fitted with heads and wires of identical spec and tuned as close as I can get them. BUT how close can you tune two drums? Add to that the effect of production tolerances in the shells, heads, and wires and it's easier to understand there are bound to be minute differences in sound to a critical and focussed ear.

I found the same thing with two 10 x 10 Pearl MMX toms and two 14 x 12 Pearl MMX toms.

I think this Ludwig SD thing is really that most drummers can get a sound they like out of them and they can generally be processed to produce a sound that producers like. They are a safe bet. I've got several and love 'em

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Originally posted by jon kelly

its probably things we will never know about the production of Supraphonics that account for slight differences in tone as im of the opinion that the alloy was not always as consistant as we think, just a thought in fact the Acrolite shell suffered from bending and the early ones had to be reinforced on the bead, and then theres the issue of which aluminium alloy Ludwig sourced through the years, there is loads and on it goes.[quote]Originally posted by alanharvey

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quote:

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Originally posted by alanharvey

quote:

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Originally posted by jon kelly

its probably things we will never know about the production of Supraphonics that account for slight differences in tone as im of the opinion that the alloy was not always as consistant as we think, just a thought in fact the Acrolite shell suffered from bending and the early ones had to be reinforced on the bead, and then theres the issue of which aluminium alloy Ludwig sourced through the years, there is loads and on it goes.[quote]Originally posted by alanharvey

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I'm sure you're right. Also spinning is a process which I understand is subject to wide tolerances. Different operators would presumably produce shells with different characteristics.

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Originally posted by jon kelly

just had a 402 replica shell made my other developed a crack it was 40 years old, i cant believe how good the new shell sounds it is better than the original believe me. The guy who makes em produces his own drums and is a true drum craftsman. I gave him the old shell and he copied it, but i askedhim to make it 2mm thick and the difference is jaw dropping

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quote:

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Originally posted by rytenuff

http://slinkzdrums.awardspace.co.uk/supra.html

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quote:

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Originally posted by alanharvey

quote:

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Originally posted by jon kelly

just had a 402 replica shell made my other developed a crack it was 40 years old, i cant believe how good the new shell sounds it is better than the original believe me. The guy who makes em produces his own drums and is a true drum craftsman. I gave him the old shell and he copied it, but i askedhim to make it 2mm thick and the difference is jaw dropping

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Interesting indeed. Somebody (alias 'Slink' from memory) did a whole load of measurements and analysis on Ludwig spun shells and had the info on a web site somewhere. As I remember there were differences in average thickness and taper from end to end (bi-product of spinning). These differences (as I remember it ) were not just new to old but between contemporary shells. I forget the final conclusion.

Ive got spun BBs and bent/brazed brass shell drums in the same sizes and the BBs are brighter and more responsive when all are tuned optimally to my ear.

I would certainly like to to know who did that new (spun?) shell for you and what it cost.

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Originally posted by fatty

Having spoke to other drummers i'm concerned now that if i buy a vintage 402 and it breaks, would a repair make it lose its sound?

After all it is a rock drum and a hard backbeat could split the shell. Nothing lasts forever and as things get old there is more likelihood of it giving way. That said that unique sound is out of this world and if i can retain it in an old drum i would be prepared to patch it up.

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Originally posted by DaveP

quote:

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Originally posted by fatty

Having spoke to other drummers i'm concerned now that if i buy a vintage 402 and it breaks, would a repair make it lose its sound?

After all it is a rock drum and a hard backbeat could split the shell. Nothing lasts forever and as things get old there is more likelihood of it giving way. That said that unique sound is out of this world and if i can retain it in an old drum i would be prepared to patch it up.

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Two points:
i) A 402 is a good snare drum for surely any type of music?
E.g. witness Bob Knight of this parish playing with Incognito

ii) I have never heard of a 402 shell splitting - anyone else?

Dave

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quote:

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Originally posted by fatty

Having spoke to other drummers i'm concerned now that if i buy a vintage 402 and it breaks, would a repair make it lose its sound?

After all it is a rock drum and a hard backbeat could split the shell. Nothing lasts forever and as things get old there is more likelihood of it giving way. That said that unique sound is out of this world and if i can retain it in an old drum i would be prepared to patch it up.

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Originally posted by lee haydn

Funny this, i bought a new 402 in from the States and eagerly opened it, i was immediatley dissapointed, there was nothing to it, it also didn't do anything for me sound wise, one fault of mine is that i didn't try any different heads with it and i never gigged it either, i sold it on quiet quickly, now the 400 iv'e just got is as different again, i love it, even with the original heads on, strange eh, what suits some etc,,

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quote:

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Originally posted by lee haydn

Funny this, i bought a new 402 in from the States and eagerly opened it, i was immediatley dissapointed, there was nothing to it, it also didn't do anything for me sound wise, one fault of mine is that i didn't try any different heads with it and i never gigged it either, i sold it on quiet quickly, now the 400 iv'e just got is as different again, i love it, even with the original heads on, strange eh, what suits some etc,,

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quote:

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Originally posted by luke3030

quote:

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Originally posted by lee haydn

Funny this, i bought a new 402 in from the States and eagerly opened it, i was immediatley dissapointed, there was nothing to it, it also didn't do anything for me sound wise, one fault of mine is that i didn't try any different heads with it and i never gigged it either, i sold it on quiet quickly, now the 400 iv'e just got is as different again, i love it, even with the original heads on, strange eh, what suits some etc,,

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The supplied heads are absolutely s**t. I found this out when i gigged a 400 from the box and regretted it. Changed wires and heads and now its a different drum.

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Originally posted by Yard

If you can tune they all sound the same,unless of course you know different?

Get one,tune it and play it...a metal shell is a metal shell (a chorus of oh no its not)!!

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Originally posted by fatty

Listen to this clip:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p24lrvN5XcA

Doesnt it sound magic. Reminiscent of Alex Van Halen.

Now for the crunch question...

How do you get it to sound like this? What heads would you recommend?

I noticed that the poster of this clip hasnt given anything away here.

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quote:

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Originally posted by alanharvey

quote:

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Originally posted by Yard

If you can tune they all sound the same,unless of course you know different?

Get one,tune it and play it...a metal shell is a metal shell (a chorus of oh no its not)!!

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Your esteemed Yardness,

Did you REALLY mean to say that ALL metal shelled drums sound the same? If not then ignore the rest of this and move on to something more interesting.

If you DID mean to say that then, as you expected - OH NO IT'S NOT! You just succeeded in winding up the obsessive anoraks like yours truly. You naughty person you.

My turn... I have a small collection of SD's including 4 brass 6.5 x 14. They are Pearl Masters, Pearl Supper Gripper, Rogers Dynasonic and Ludwig BB. All have newish coated Amb batters, clear Amb snare heads and decent wires. I have a sound in my head that I can get from the BB. However I tune the others I can't get that sound at the playing position. I've also got a Sonor with a ferro manganese shell and a 402 and they are both different again.

They all just sound slightly different to me.

However from out front, moongelled to lifelessness, close miked and processed to hell you are surely right about them all sounding the same. Is that what you really meant?

So, I am clearly crap at tuning. If I bring my collection to your gaff what would you charge to tune them all to sound exactly like my BB?

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quote:

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Originally posted by fatty

Is there any diff in sound between an LM402 supersensitive and LM402 supra?

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quote:

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Originally posted by fatty

It finally arrived and what a drum. First thing that struck me getting it out of the box was just how light it was. But of course it's aluminium or Ludalloy.....doh!

A lovely drum but its been dampened and doesn't give out any resonance. I'm hoping that a decent re-head and a 42 strand snare will bring out the best in it.

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Originally posted by jon kelly

High bottom head tuning, medium high batter or just medium tuning, not very taught wires, get the same note all the way around the better, get the wires square to the drum and you will hear that big JB sound pop out.

quote:

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Originally posted by fatty

It finally arrived and what a drum. First thing that struck me getting it out of the box was just how light it was. But of course it's aluminium or Ludalloy.....doh!

A lovely drum but its been dampened and doesn't give out any resonance. I'm hoping that a decent re-head and a 42 strand snare will bring out the best in it.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Yard

quote:

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Originally posted by alanharvey

quote:

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Originally posted by Yard

If you can tune they all sound the same,unless of course you know different?

Get one,tune it and play it...a metal shell is a metal shell (a chorus of oh no its not)!!

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Your esteemed Yardness,

Did you REALLY mean to say that ALL metal shelled drums sound the same? If not then ignore the rest of this and move on to something more interesting.

If you DID mean to say that then, as you expected - OH NO IT'S NOT! You just succeeded in winding up the obsessive anoraks like yours truly. You naughty person you.

My turn... I have a small collection of SD's including 4 brass 6.5 x 14. They are Pearl Masters, Pearl Supper Gripper, Rogers Dynasonic and Ludwig BB. All have newish coated Amb batters, clear Amb snare heads and decent wires. I have a sound in my head that I can get from the BB. However I tune the others I can't get that sound at the playing position. I've also got a Sonor with a ferro manganese shell and a 402 and they are both different again.

They all just sound slightly different to me.

However from out front, moongelled to lifelessness, close miked and processed to hell you are surely right about them all sounding the same. Is that what you really meant?

So, I am clearly crap at tuning. If I bring my collection to your gaff what would you charge to tune them all to sound exactly like my BB?

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Obviously different metals make a different sound.

Without going into detail too much,why not use my simple sound checker.

Whack the poxy thing and if you like it then,buy it?

You will find that using this simple sound device that you can spend more time enjoying life than worrying if the bloke from Joe's Cafe heard the tonal difference when you switched snares halfway through a song?

Where the perfect sound theory falls straight down the manhole is that a lot (most) drummers take two snares to a gig but NEVER two identical models with identical tuning?

Answers on a postcard please...

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