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David Smaylen
Advanced Contributer
United Kingdom
722 Posts |
 Posted - 12/08/2012 : 10:54:57
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| So, I'm running around all stressed and sweaty setting my gear up when I hear a voice saying "Where's the **** bass drum hole?". I explained that I liked it the way it was, thanks all the same. "If I had a knife, I'd cut a **** hole in it" says small trollish sound man. "No," I said, with as much menace as a 54yo accountant can muster, "You wouldn't." Long one sided discussion ensues about life on the road with X,Y & Z famous bands, knowing what he is talking about, best equipment money can buy, f***cking drummers etc etc and we agree to differ. Haven't heard the recording yet, but from the foldback there seemed to be a rather woofling sound coming off the front head - as he told me there would be. We almost laughed about it afterwards. Almost. So, do I butcher the reso to avoid this hassle in future, or stick to my guns and prepare myself for other confrontations? Does it, in fact, make any bloody difference if I port it or not. Answers on a postcard, please. |
www.thecohenbrothers.co.uk
Tama Starclassic
Zildjian A Customs |
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FenTiger
Advanced Contributer
United Kingdom
5556 Posts |
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Prog
Advanced Contributer
United Kingdom
21173 Posts |
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benjisonfire
Advanced Contributer
United Kingdom
4837 Posts |
Posted - 12/08/2012 : 11:15:18
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no hole and lack of experience dealing with it, does create a woofing sound. There are ofcourse many ways to eliminate it, and in an ideal world all sound engineers would know them.
The thing is that in a live situation, the sound the mics hear is very different to the acoustic sound. and what works best isn't always what you would expect. for example I like a single headed kick for recording. it's much easier to get a cutting, thumpy sound... however acoustically I think it sounds thin!
Given that the sound guy is already juggling getting vocals loud enough for the singer, balancing guitarists and the bassist who can't hear himself whilst working with a limited frequency range and DB count in the monitors/PA, ontop of dealing with many usually completely different style bands in one night without enough time, and a pushy promoter, IMO you want to do everything you can to make their life easier for a good live sound overall.
if you don't mind porting it, then I personally would do it. if you have the time, learn some of the tricks for micing an un-ported kick, and advise the sound guy to try it... he may ignore you, but then again if he is ok he may be open to try it out.
overall I think there is a reason ported kicks are by far the more common. just easier to deal with. |
http://soundcloud.com/benjipage
www.facebook.com/thevacationsuk
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DyeHouseDrumWorks
Excellent Contributer
United Kingdom
185 Posts |
Posted - 12/08/2012 : 11:37:09
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Was it a bad woofing sound?! ...did it form part of the ambience you might expect - and indeed be going for with that head configuration?
Stick to your guns with the closed head for sure, but you could consider making a small grill-like area (BBQ/decking jokes aside ;-)
I have a 24" Gretsch bass drum, which I wanted to go down the closed front head/natural tone & look route with, so bought a 24" Fibreskin and a simple felt strip for the batter side. It was sounding a little choked, so I adopted the Evans Genera reso BD idea and drilled a diamond shape design of about 16, 5mm holes right in the centre - in line with where the beater stikes the batter head. It maintains the tension across the reso head, but gives you a lot of mic'ing options. It's a leap of faith, but could work for you? |
Dye House Drum Works. Find us on Facebook and at at: www.dyehousedrumworks.com |
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Captain Bubble
Advanced Contributer
United Kingdom
14638 Posts |
Posted - 12/08/2012 : 12:01:12
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| The sound man sounds like an arrogant toss pot. However, his version posted on a Sound forum would make you sound like that! Sometimes a compromise can work wonders. I used to hate any ports or muffling, and I used to bristle when any sound engineer tried to modify my sound. Now that I do my own recordings I do whatever it takes to get a sound which fits the music, including tea towels on the heads. That said, YOU are the musician and you have the right to have your instrument sounding anyway you want it to, unless the decision is being made by someone who is paying you to be there. |
Marcus de Mowbray
www.330studios.co.uk/marcus |
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lee haydn
Advanced Contributer
United Kingdom
2035 Posts |
Posted - 12/08/2012 : 12:10:29
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| I bet John Bonham/Buddy Rich would have put this demi god in his place, i'm sure there is some documentation somewhere about John Bonham about his bass reso and sound men,, |
Ludwig Maple Classic (Green Sparkle) + L400
Sabian HH and Paiste Stanbul vintage
Pro' Racket |
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scottser
Very Active Contributer
Ireland
95 Posts |
Posted - 12/08/2012 : 12:20:22
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| Evans do those mesh heads - retro screens I think they're called - for your reso head. They give you a similar feel to your unported reso head but allow enough air to escape for a mic to pick up with a decent frequency range. Otherwise, take off your reso head completely. As for the attitude from the sound engineer, just point out that drums are an acoustic instrument like any other and if he knew what he was doing he wouldn't have to react like a dick. The're a funny breed tho.. |
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Captain Bubble
Advanced Contributer
United Kingdom
14638 Posts |
Posted - 12/08/2012 : 12:28:11
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I have live recordings with two full heads, eg Johnny Winter And Live where the bass drum (24") sounds superb, booming but defined. I also once did a recording session where the producer was keen for me to remove the front head. I told him that the sound would be dull from that particular bass drum as I had already tried it. He was quite insistent so I did not make a scene, but once removed the producer admitted that it was better with two full heads, and the recording sounds great.
Depending on how complicated your set up is, it might be possible to mic the batter head; depending on drum, tuning, mic, music and room acoustic this can work fine.
The sound engineer <<should>> be capable of working with any instrument that arrives at the venue without arguing with the musician, but the musician should also be aware that the engineer might get a better idea of how things sound out front. |
Marcus de Mowbray
www.330studios.co.uk/marcus |
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lee haydn
Advanced Contributer
United Kingdom
2035 Posts |
Posted - 12/08/2012 : 12:59:45
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quote:
Originally posted by scottser
[br]Evans do those mesh heads - retro screens I think they're called - for your reso head. They give you a similar feel to your unported reso head but allow enough air to escape for a mic to pick up with a decent frequency range. Otherwise, take off your reso head completely. As for the attitude from the sound engineer, just point out that drums are an acoustic instrument like any other and if he knew what he was doing he wouldn't have to react like a dick. The're a funny breed tho..
Iv'e used these quiet often, i love 'em, however, they didn't sell well and they only do the 22" head now or there would be one on my 24",, |
Ludwig Maple Classic (Green Sparkle) + L400
Sabian HH and Paiste Stanbul vintage
Pro' Racket |
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Sharklaar
Advanced Contributer
United Kingdom
1840 Posts |
Posted - 12/08/2012 : 13:11:30
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I used to have a full reso head, at my first live gig, with a 24" Tama Imperialstar, the sound man was a bit perplexed but he was a top guy and obviously knew what he was doing. He managed to get a great sound for it! He does our sound quite a lot nowadays, and he comes to a lot of our gigs. I listen to his advice about things, I now use a ported head for the reasons given above - it's easier and less proficient sound guys will find it easier.
Also, lest we not forget that if harsh words are exchanged with the person controlling your sound, there's every chance that it might not sound particularly good, no matter what equipment you're using... |
http://www.blackhawkdown.org.uk |
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David Smaylen
Advanced Contributer
United Kingdom
722 Posts |
Posted - 12/08/2012 : 14:27:39
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| Thanks for the input. I think I can save a lot of potential grief without greatly affecting the sound by porting the reso. I had already spoken to the sadly departed Bham Drum Centre who anticipated my question when asking about reinforcer rings (Holz and the like) by saying "And yes, we do fit them". Anyone know if PMT in Bham are likely to do the same thing? There is NO WAY I am going to fit one myself - I don't care how easy you guys tell me it is. IT ISN'T GOING TO HAPPEN! It's a bit like deciding to circumcise your own son - I'd rather pay an expert. |
www.thecohenbrothers.co.uk
Tama Starclassic
Zildjian A Customs |
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XPK-USA
Advanced Contributer
USA
706 Posts |
Posted - 12/08/2012 : 14:31:15
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| I have my mic mounted inside the Kick now and it works great, I think the sound guy went about it very wrong and with horrible attitude, but I think a miced bass drum sounds much better than a bass drum miced outside a full head, with a ported head and an internal mic, Its a much tighter sound, punchcy, no boomy stuff and on and on, less stage bleed because its isolated etc.. But I say port your reso ! |
Pearl Vison "VMX" Maple, 10-12-16 and 22 x 18 Bass drum in red sparkle laquer. Gibralter Rack, all other hardware Pearl 2000 series, Eliminator double pedals and Hi Hat stand..Sabian AAX and Stagg Myra Crashes Cynbals..Tama Starphonic Aluminium ans Starphonic Steel snare, and Ludwig Black Magic snares..Evans drum heads..Shure drum mics, Protection Racket cases, LP and Pearl various percussion! |
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lee haydn
Advanced Contributer
United Kingdom
2035 Posts |
Posted - 12/08/2012 : 17:50:24
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| There's a clip on tube on how to do your own port hole, just go to 1.26 no knives involved!! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7P-LtwqeSAA |
Ludwig Maple Classic (Green Sparkle) + L400
Sabian HH and Paiste Stanbul vintage
Pro' Racket |
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GrimAudiere
Advanced Contributer
United Kingdom
1080 Posts |
Posted - 12/08/2012 : 19:11:52
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As someone who has done both though only in an amateur capacity, I must say that my attitude is always that the sound engineer is there to make the band sound the best they can with the sounds they've chosen. I would never ask the guitarist to slap gaffa tape over his strings, so why would I ask the drummer to change their drum kit? There are loads of ways of micing up a bass drum with and without a hole, and any engineer should know these.
A small hole in the resonant head doesn't really change the sound, so I personally have one on my bass drum to slow the widest possible rage of mixing/recording techniques to be used. But I am shocked that the sound engineer didn't know how to cope without a hole in the resonant head.
IMHO etc etc. |
Andrew
The Windsor Community Orchestra - making music in the community
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Tex
Advanced Contributer
United Kingdom
1585 Posts |
Posted - 12/08/2012 : 21:51:58
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My advice is that if you like unported bass haeds you should carry a spare ported head to those gigs likely to be finicky.
About 4 inch port should do. Evans do one with a 5 port which fits the portapotty tube thingies if you're into those. Ah! Kickport, memory back again.
Don't have the front head too loose as you will get a flappy sound ported or no.
Don't know if you can still get them but I always carry a couple of Drum-drops which are basically big flat (moon)gel patches about 3" across, slap one on one or both heads usually shuts the soundfecker up. |
Sitting on top of the mountain isn't the most interesting bit of the climb. Sitting at the bottom aint much fun either. |
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Yard
Advanced Contributer
Uzbekistan
5232 Posts |
Posted - 13/08/2012 : 01:00:47
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The sound man sounds like a pompous mug to me.
If he is as good as he makes out he would have:-
a) Recorded with a full head to show off his extreme talent.
b) Convinced you with reasoning that it was for the best result.
Many drummers record with head intact..some with a subkick or a speaker cone held in a small metalwork vice for bottom end.
Some only know one way of recording due to their lack of knowledge so they lash out to make you feel as though you know little so that you agree to their proposal.
Stick to your guns unless he is very convincing due to his limited talent.
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Shut it and whack the poxy things!
www.vintagedrumyard.co.uk
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Mark W
Advanced Contributer
United Kingdom
1124 Posts |
Posted - 13/08/2012 : 09:41:07
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Hi David,
I'm useless at DIY but have fitted Holez to about 3 display heads in my time.
I was anxious too but you simply stick the plastic ring on the inside of the head, cut out the hole using a knife that ISN'T especially sharp (their instructions) then press the chrome effect trim on the front and it clicks onto the plastic ring. But if a shop will do it inexpensively for you I can appreciate where you're coming from.
I happily stumbled across a great bass drum sound with my new kit. Because I liked the look of a full head I did the first gig without a port to see how it would go, if we struggled to get a good sound I'd have ported it for the next gig. Anyway, no front hole, an Evans Emad with the larger foam ring, no extra damping and mic'd from the batter side. Massive focussed sound which surprised me as I'd always assumed you needed at least a towel in the bass drum and that you had to push a mic into it.
Cheerio
Mark W |
Once I've hit it, it stays hit.
http://www.theenzymes.co.uk |
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logic_user99
Advanced Contributer
United Kingdom
10129 Posts |
Posted - 13/08/2012 : 11:46:46
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On a smaller kick, I don't use a 'ported' head and I won't be told by a sound man or otherwise that I should change. On a larger kick, I'll generally use a small port in the head (maybe a 2" or 4" Holz) just to give the drum a bit more punch.
It is the soundperson's job to make you sound good through the PA, not for you to adapt your gear because they can't / don't want to work with it as it is. |
Drums | Cymbals | Sticks
"Starting my professional life from scratch..." |
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GrimAudiere
Advanced Contributer
United Kingdom
1080 Posts |
Posted - 13/08/2012 : 12:14:07
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quote:
Originally posted by Mark W
... and mic'd from the batter side. ...
This is one of the standard ways of micing a bass drum - especially if you do not want to (or cannot) use a ported front head.
Often sounds really good BUT you have to make sure the pedal is silent.
Again - how did this sound engineer not know this? |
Andrew
The Windsor Community Orchestra - making music in the community
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martydrums
Advanced Contributer
United Kingdom
6144 Posts |
Posted - 13/08/2012 : 12:51:09
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| David, was this a live gig or a recording session? |
Official Sugar Daddy of the forum's Sonor Delite appreciation society, as nominated by Jamoca - Honorary President Paul Brook
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RickB
Excellent Contributer
185 Posts |
Posted - 13/08/2012 : 14:08:37
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Being a drumming sound guy, I'm always interested in these threads. I've played my kit with ported and none ported heads, and for the type of music I play ported wins hands down, due to double bass drumming, on a single drum.
There is an art to micing either, although (TBH) when I mic'd my own kit with a full front head, I just had the mic dead centre, but a little distance off the reso head, to avoid the proximity effect of the mic, which was probably the cause of the woofing sound you heard.
If you're in a small venue and micing the batter side, the sound guy needs to remember to flip the polarity on the mic, otherwise you'll lose bass end, due to cancellation.
I do disagree with benjisonfire when he says the mic hears differently to you, the drummer. They don't really, they just get a truer sound directly from the head, with less room colouring in there. I have this argument with guitarists all the time, who think their 4x12 sounds toppy. My usual retort is that if their ankles (it's always the guitarists who have their cabs on the floor have this issue)had ears, that would be the sound they heard. 4 feet of vertical height rolls off a lot of top end!!
Anyway, this is just my opinion. As we all know opinions are like bums, everyone has one, but not all of them should be out in public!! |
Doing stuff with a Pearl Reference kit, Sabian cymbals and Vater sticks.
http://photobucket.com/PearlReference
http://www.final-hour.com
http://www.youtube.com/finalhourmetal |
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Tex
Advanced Contributer
United Kingdom
1585 Posts |
Posted - 13/08/2012 : 15:54:28
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quote:
Originally posted by logic_user99
On a smaller kick, I don't use a 'ported' head and I won't be told by a sound man or otherwise that I should change. On a larger kick, I'll generally use a small port in the head (maybe a 2" or 4" Holz) just to give the drum a bit more punch.
It is the soundperson's job to make you sound good through the PA, not for you to adapt your gear because they can't / don't want to work with it as it is.
Exactly. To my recollection no soundman in recent history has ever asked a violinist to put gaffer on the bridge "because it's ringin a bit". Or "Can you just put a rag in that trombone mate?" |
Sitting on top of the mountain isn't the most interesting bit of the climb. Sitting at the bottom aint much fun either. |
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Matt Blakout
New Contributer
United Kingdom
9 Posts |
Posted - 13/08/2012 : 16:53:44
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| I had the same thing and I still get comments from sound engineers when I rock up with my gear with NO apparent hole in the front skin, to quote the sound engineer at Cambridge Rock Festival recently - 'I betsound engineers love you' to which I replied, 'Yes they do my friend becouse you will notice an XLR socket on the side of the drum which simply requires you to plug into'. I have a D112 suspended inside, Not to be outdone he replied he prefered a different mic, but there you go. Needless to say the kickdrum sounded awesome. |
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