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Sharklaar
Advanced Contributer
United Kingdom
1840 Posts |
 Posted - 13/08/2012 : 21:22:52
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So we've done a few mixes of our first DIY track. Here it is...
http://shark.digitalscream.org.uk/tiaa.mp3
We know that this is far from perfect and probably shouldn't be out in public view yet... everything has had one attempt at recording.
What do you think? Looking for some feedback on the mixing rather than the quality of the song or performance. The vocals were done really quickly and we're re-recording them this week. We know they're not great. We spent so long setting up the drum room that we only had about an hour of recording and I only got a handful of takes in after 3 weeks of not playing at all (resting an injury).
</excuses> |
http://www.blackhawkdown.org.uk |
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stakka
Advanced Contributer
United Kingdom
2592 Posts |
Posted - 14/08/2012 : 10:55:38
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Well I actually got distracted by the song rather than the mixing - I really liked that !
I slapped it on my near field montiors and as a very quick first impression - and in my own very humble opinion:
- the general levels and initial face value mix seemed really good from where I was listening - especially as you mention this is a first and still in progress - in which case just keep working on the small details like cleaning up the mix, positioning the sounds and getting the frequency separation as defined as possible. I'm not sure what system you are using but with some careful use of some further processing / DAW plug ins I'd say there is potential to turn a good mix in to a great mix with not too much work. Really dive in to each track and using expanders, high pass filters and maybe some slight narrow EQ cuts to get each channel extra defined and clean which will all help to make the mix pop out even more.
Personally I feel the drums are a tiny bit in the background (but I am a drummer!) and the snare is dipping out slightly in places.
And if I were sitting at this mix I'd be just trying to tighten that Bass Guitar sound up (not the playing) but to me it is not quite sitting in there yet and maybe work on its EQ and the Bass drum EQ to get them sitting together perfectly - possibly even add a bit of grit to the bass guitar sound or tweak it further - in my mind it needs something.
Are the guitars panned around much? - I'd try sticking one over a bit more and maybe have a shade of reverb panned opposite to space it out a bit more.
But if that is your first effort then pretty fab - and I am far from a Pro so take with a pinch of salt if need be. |
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Sharklaar
Advanced Contributer
United Kingdom
1840 Posts |
Posted - 14/08/2012 : 11:25:56
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Thanks Stakka - glad you like the song! We've got another 12 or 13 to do in the next few months, hoping to put together a proper album ourselves. We're using Reaper, and the rooms we're recording in are large and not acoustically treated (local village hall) - so it's a bit of a challenge!
We've been fighting against the bleed from the hi-hat into the snare mic - trying to get rid of that resulted in the snare losing a lot of its crack, something we can probably rectify when we re-record with mic placement. I want to do the drums again anyway - there's a few little slips in there I want to get rid of, and I was a bit rusty after a few weeks out of action so I missed some more interesting fills I'd planned due to lack of practice!
Bass player has been doing most of the mixing so far so I'm assuming the bass sound is how he wants it at the moment - but I see your point about separatioin between the bass guitar and the bass drum. The bass drum has a nice 'thud' to it, but perhaps not enough attack, so the definition isn't quite there yet. We had to move the mic away from the beater inside the drum because any closer and all we were getting was the 'click'.
Not sure about the panning of the guitar, I'll see what Bass says. Will suggest the panning/reverb you've mentioned.
For the next mix I'd like to sit with him for the drum mix so I can put my 2p in - that's what we've been missing when we've recorded in studios, the engineer preferred to do the mix on his own so we didn't have a lot of input into our own sound! |
http://www.blackhawkdown.org.uk |
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stakka
Advanced Contributer
United Kingdom
2592 Posts |
Posted - 14/08/2012 : 12:14:12
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I have not used Reaper myself so not sure what it can do but have heard lots of good things about it.
The Guitars do not need to be panned too much, but just separated out a shade more I feel - especially with the guitar solo where IMO it could do with standing out from the rhythm guitar a bit more as they are slightly too similar sounding in certain places, either by slight panning positioning, further EQ or maybe possibly ducking the rhythm sound slightly during the solo by side chain compression driven by the lead.
Certainly will be good to hear them drums coming out a shade more, from what you can hear of them they do sound a nice kit. Recording drums is a real art though and I have little experience so hopefully you will continue to nail it and also pick up further tips from the experts on here. |
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Captain Bubble
Advanced Contributer
United Kingdom
14625 Posts |
Posted - 14/08/2012 : 16:20:42
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I broadly agree with stakka even though it is not a style of music I listen to much these days.
Firstly: in my opinion the music, its arrangement and performance are more important than issues of recording, production, mixing etc., and you music is well written and arranged to keep my interest, and well performed. Nothing is out of place.
I understand this was the track you were having snare/hihat problems with, and this does show: the HH and cymbals are slightly hissy, and the snare slightly lost behind them. But the point is that the music carries on well, despite this slight imbalance. As stakka said, it could be better, but I would prefer to listen to this than something well produced but with dull writing/arrangement or playing.
Be a bit careful of everyone sitting around putting in their 2p, sometimes one person with good ears is better than several people who my be putting personal pride and vanity above the group sound! I do my own recording, production and mixing, but as I play all instruments apart from "Special Guests" I have learned to listen to the whole. |
Marcus de Mowbray
www.330studios.co.uk/marcus |
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Sharklaar
Advanced Contributer
United Kingdom
1840 Posts |
Posted - 14/08/2012 : 20:29:04
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That's the one Marcus - re-recording the drums next week hopefully, and with what we learned the first time we should be able to make them sound a lot better!
Agree about the quality of the music before production, but if we want to release a full length album properly we'll need to get the production bit right - and there's a couple of perfectionists in the band (which is not a bad thing I think in this case, as long as no handbags start to fly).
Also agree about too many cooks... I'm going to let Bass do his thing, maybe offer up some suggestions about how I would like the drums to sound, but I'm happy with his say being final. And we get on well, never had any handbag situations so it should be a happy result  |
http://www.blackhawkdown.org.uk |
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Captain Bubble
Advanced Contributer
United Kingdom
14625 Posts |
Posted - 14/08/2012 : 20:33:54
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| The important thing with recording and mixing is to take your time. Have a break between recording and mixing, ears and brain must be fresh. After mixing play it on a variety of equipment, from little poratbles to Hi Fi and headphones. Then leave a few days, listen again and see if you are STILL happy with it. Also listen sat in front of the speakers concentrating, then listen again while walking around and half-listening. |
Marcus de Mowbray
www.330studios.co.uk/marcus |
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Sharklaar
Advanced Contributer
United Kingdom
1840 Posts |
Posted - 14/08/2012 : 20:35:21
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| Yeah Bass said he was practically deaf after an all-night session recently, but thought it sounded great. Listened in the morning and it was totally different..... sound advice! |
http://www.blackhawkdown.org.uk |
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stakka
Advanced Contributer
United Kingdom
2592 Posts |
Posted - 15/08/2012 : 00:22:46
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I've found after only 15 minutes my ears accustom themselves to the music and start to compensate for shortcomings in the mix and this seems like it is a well known thing. Regular breaks and monitor at low level as much as possible. Also regularly check for mono compatibility as it is astounding how sounds can practically mutate when played through mono devices and there are a number of mono mediums still out there.
If your bass / mix guy is a reader then well worth reading up on mixing by the Pros. Mixing secrets by Mike Senior can be a little hard going in some places but is laid out to ensure you follow a good discipline, which you will see is quite repetitive but is so for a reason.
But overall the beauty but also the drawback is that mixing is a very personal thing - but hopefully you will be as to keep it fun and can look forward to some great results. I'd certainly like to hear this one progress.
Enjoy! |
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Captain Bubble
Advanced Contributer
United Kingdom
14625 Posts |
Posted - 15/08/2012 : 08:44:51
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| You're right stakka, and also you can so easily get used to the mix and really "get into it", especially if the song has a moving rhythm and feel. You come to accept the flaws as great. Then you don't hear it for a few days, and next time you listen you literally have an "Omigod, that's awful!" moment. |
Marcus de Mowbray
www.330studios.co.uk/marcus |
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stakka
Advanced Contributer
United Kingdom
2592 Posts |
Posted - 15/08/2012 : 11:43:22
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Yeah - probably why in the pro arena you usually have a separate entity to the band doing the mixing / mastering .... and also producing - so that they can be unbiased in getting the final product polished rather than have a personal attachment to the music being mixed.
But that's not to say a band shouldn't mix their own stuff - I would want to do all our stuff, and I do, thats the fun of it.............. but leaving it to the bass man ????? Shock Horror 
 I jest obviously, as in fairness the last thing you hear in Sharks mix is an overbearing bass dominating everything.
Now get him to turn them fecking Drums up !!!!  |
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Sharklaar
Advanced Contributer
United Kingdom
1840 Posts |
Posted - 15/08/2012 : 11:52:40
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| If all goes to plan we should see some real progress by mid-next week. Vocals are being re-recorded tonight, and just working on booking the venue to spend a few hours on the drums on Sunday... a few days for mixing after that and we might be approaching release-quality if the performances are good enough. |
http://www.blackhawkdown.org.uk |
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dogface
Advanced Contributer
United Kingdom
894 Posts |
Posted - 15/08/2012 : 13:34:50
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| It would be great if you could find a place where you could leave the drums and recording equipment set up for at least a few days. Setting up the kit and micing it up takes a lot longer than playing one song, and stripping it all down again only to set up again for the next session is a pain in backside. Spend time getting it miced up as best you can and then leave it - it will make mixing a lot easier. |
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Sharklaar
Advanced Contributer
United Kingdom
1840 Posts |
Posted - 21/08/2012 : 20:56:21
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MKII, after new vocal take and some twiddling.... sounding much better now. Still a couple of slips in the drums though, and there's a sync problem in the breakdown at the end.
http://shark.digitalscream.org.uk/tiaa2.mp3
We had another session of doing the drums at the weekend but had to scrap it. We got over-excited about having loads of toys to play with, which eventually just made everything too complicated - a sound guy friend of ours lent us loads of gear but it was set up more for live sound I think rather than recording - too much stuff in mono and the snare ended up being full of ring. Will have another go next week...
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http://www.blackhawkdown.org.uk |
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christianmurphy
Advanced Contributer
United Kingdom
534 Posts |
Posted - 22/08/2012 : 21:36:49
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| I know it might not necessarily be your thing, but samples would make a big difference to the mix of the drums. The drums still sound great, but having a layered clean sample of the kick and snare will enable you to have all the punch you need without the hassle of bleed. |
79 Ludwig - Pearl Masters - Istanbul - Zildjian - DW |
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Sharklaar
Advanced Contributer
United Kingdom
1840 Posts |
Posted - 22/08/2012 : 22:38:02
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Trying to avoid samples if we can get away wit it, it seems a bit like cheating. Although I know everybody does it, I'd like to try and get it sounding good without first and use it as a last resort. We got a great sound for the bass drum this time around anyway, but we had to scrap it cause of the quality of the rest of the stuff.
All a learning curve though - the next takes will be great, pretty sure we've got a good system sorted for next time. |
http://www.blackhawkdown.org.uk |
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martydrums
Advanced Contributer
United Kingdom
6141 Posts |
Posted - 23/08/2012 : 15:20:29
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Good choon that Shark, I enjoyed it. The intro lulled me in to a false sense of Beatles but that soon changed!
Re balance of the mix and such: well I think the guitars are just a bit too in your face and the drums a rather lost as a result. Other than that not bad.
Some parts of the singing reminded me of Living Color (which is good!)I found the guitar widdling at around 3:10 onward a bit gratuitous. |
Official Sugar Daddy of the forum's Sonor Delite appreciation society, as nominated by Jamoca - Honorary President Paul Brook
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Sharklaar
Advanced Contributer
United Kingdom
1840 Posts |
Posted - 23/08/2012 : 20:30:33
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Cheers Marty. Did you listen to te second version? I think the drums are up a bit and the vocals are muc better than the 1st version. Still though, more drum takes required. I had never heard of Living COlour - just watched Cult of Personality... thanks for introducing them into my life!!
And yes, our guitarists love to widdle.
Just saw a physio about tennis elbow, looks like I've got to rest as much as possible. We've got another 12 songs to do though! Probably get the banjos and vocals done first, then do all the drums in a few days at the end... |
http://www.blackhawkdown.org.uk |
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Captain Bubble
Advanced Contributer
United Kingdom
14625 Posts |
Posted - 23/08/2012 : 21:29:52
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| Pretty good overall, punchy and nothing sounds badly out of place. I understand the argument for samples, and commercially they are the done thing, but I prefer to listen to music played by people, regardless of flaws. I think the mix is about right, but only using smallish pc speakers. |
Marcus de Mowbray
www.330studios.co.uk/marcus |
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martydrums
Advanced Contributer
United Kingdom
6141 Posts |
Posted - 23/08/2012 : 21:57:16
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Shark, not sure what you mean about "second version" I clicked the link and it took me straight to one song. Am I missing something?
Welcome to the crazy, rocking, funky, high energy world of Living Colour. A great band who wrote great choons. Corey Glover is an excellent singer, Vernon Reid is an absolutely wonderful guitarist and Will Calhoun is a brilliant drummer! |
Official Sugar Daddy of the forum's Sonor Delite appreciation society, as nominated by Jamoca - Honorary President Paul Brook
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Sharklaar
Advanced Contributer
United Kingdom
1840 Posts |
Posted - 23/08/2012 : 22:10:53
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There's a link in the original post, and a second mix (tiaa2.mp3) in a post further down the thread...
Living Colour remind me of Faith No More a bit. |
http://www.blackhawkdown.org.uk |
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martydrums
Advanced Contributer
United Kingdom
6141 Posts |
Posted - 24/08/2012 : 08:52:21
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Ah Ha , just listened to the second mix. Sounds a lot better than MKI. Much improved. |
Official Sugar Daddy of the forum's Sonor Delite appreciation society, as nominated by Jamoca - Honorary President Paul Brook
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stakka
Advanced Contributer
United Kingdom
2592 Posts |
Posted - 27/08/2012 : 19:27:16
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| I've only just got back from holiday so just had a first quick listen. I'll have another good listen tomorrow and let you know my thoughts then if that is ok ? - not just to critique the mix but also it helps my own progress on mixing / mastering to be able to hear other peoples work and to try and work my way through how they do things and what I think I am hearing. Either way... still liking the song lots !!! |
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