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benjisonfire
Advanced Contributer
United Kingdom
4837 Posts |
 Posted - 14/08/2012 : 14:07:55
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What do you think? is this going to happen?
I find myself looking particularly at the new ludwig drums, (likely next purchase) clubdates/cavernclub/downbeat etc, and thinking it all looks great except that stupid isolation cage looks like the drums have braces. so if I did I may drill the tom. of course this would probably damage the re-sale.
something clean and funky about a drilled shell, of course this seems totally opposite to the way modern drums are marketed, but I quite like the way the full kit can 'sing' together. maybe ludwig would ship a drilled one issued with a certificate of insanity? |
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beezerk
Advanced Contributer
United Kingdom
29127 Posts |
Posted - 14/08/2012 : 14:20:42
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Is there any data that suggests hanging toms from the rims has an effect on the tuning or resonance of a drum?
I was just musing over whether it would force one side of the hoop down further which will effect the overall sound. |
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drumanorak
Advanced Contributer
United Kingdom
370 Posts |
Posted - 14/08/2012 : 14:27:44
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Drums were nearly always drilled in the 60 and 70s sounded great then (some were!!), and people are still trying to get that retro sound with undrilled!!
Some of my drums are drilled and they are probably some of my fav sounding drums. |
Im not deaf..........pardon!!! |
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MacDB7
Excellent Contributer
United Kingdom
254 Posts |
Posted - 14/08/2012 : 14:54:55
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I find any isolation mounts (especially the Gretsch & Ludwig styles) incredibly annoying for set-up.
If you hold onto the shells while angling them, when you let go them move to a completely different angle...
So then you have to awkwardly hold onto the rim mount with one hand while adjusting the ball-joint...
The only difference in sound I've noticed is between a drilled/undrilled bass drum... especially if the mounting hole is left open. |
Jazz drummer
Mapex & Zildjian = the perfect combination!
http://soundcloud.com/calum-macleod |
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Bewdy
Advanced Contributer
United Kingdom
818 Posts |
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mully
Advanced Contributer
United Kingdom
23894 Posts |
Posted - 14/08/2012 : 15:00:21
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I'll certainly never go back to drilled mounts on toms by choice. I notice a real difference in sound.
Stephen |
MD Fount of All Wisdom for Life and Extraordinary Amusement Officer of the forum's Sonor Delite Appreciation Society.
"Jayz mully, you're like the Django of the internet!" - scottser on the Drumming Ireland forum |
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Captain Bubble
Advanced Contributer
United Kingdom
14630 Posts |
Posted - 14/08/2012 : 15:11:15
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Suspended drums have a fuller tone, more sustain and the harmonics are more proportional. I make my own suspension cradles for my string instruments, and the results are absolutely comparable.
That does not mean the sound is "better" for any particular person's taste or musical situation, each musician makes his or her own choice. If the complications of a suspension system outweigh its benefits for you, then that's your choice.
Bewdy is absolutely correct about holding then mounting a tom: hold it by (for example) 1 tension rod, and compare with how it sounds when mounted. |
Marcus de Mowbray
www.330studios.co.uk/marcus |
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benjisonfire
Advanced Contributer
United Kingdom
4837 Posts |
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monkeythedrummer
Advanced Contributer
United Kingdom
9183 Posts |
Posted - 14/08/2012 : 15:22:08
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Having built quite a few kits I'd say there is a difference - but on some drums this is far more noticeable than others. I've found in general the thinner the drum shell the greater difference mounting makes. Now, I've said they are different, but that doesn't mean better by any means.
Benj, if you don't like those mounts try these...
http://www.woodbrass.com/en/product_info.php?products_id=64403&af=35
Less in-your-face than the RIMS style and less metal too.
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100% NOT SELLING Yamaha DTXplorer Module, 5x ddrum triggers, mesh heads and Yamaha E-cymbals. |
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MacDB7
Excellent Contributer
United Kingdom
254 Posts |
Posted - 14/08/2012 : 16:14:13
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I do however love the Mapex style of tom mounts (especially the Saturn & Orion floor toms) which allow easy adjustment and enough support for the drum without putting any unnecessary stress on the tension rods on one side.
I had to laugh a couple of weeks ago when I encountered a drummer with a custom kit that had a special cradle for the 16" floor tom (the shell came away from the cradle if you lifted it) but because he didn't have a clue about tuning, it sounded absolutely awful compared to a Stagg floor tom I was using, which was tuned properly :D Shows that in order for these special systems to make a difference they must be looked after by knowledgeable musicians! |
Jazz drummer
Mapex & Zildjian = the perfect combination!
http://soundcloud.com/calum-macleod |
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DyeHouseDrumWorks
Excellent Contributer
United Kingdom
185 Posts |
Posted - 14/08/2012 : 16:44:30
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You could look into 'nodal mounting' ideas (which I know sounds like something from a long lost east Asian trancription of the Karma Sutra...).
It's the concept of finding the best point to place a direct tom mount for it to affect the drums resonance least.
If you use low mass fittings that would probably help too.
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Dye House Drum Works. Find us on Facebook and at at: www.dyehousedrumworks.com |
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Captain Bubble
Advanced Contributer
United Kingdom
14630 Posts |
Posted - 14/08/2012 : 17:09:21
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I have to admit that I am not convinced by Nodal Mounting when it comes to drums! On Xylophone, Vibes etc., the keys are exact shapes and sizes through years of experience, and each one produces just one note with its well-ordered harmonic series.
A drum shell is cylindrical, and that immediately means that it vibrates differently, and not "purely". Then you bolt tuning devices on which changes it again and makes it less pure, then you attach heads whose collars grip the edges very tightly to constrict vibrations. By now the drum might have little discernible pure pitch and therefore barely discernible nodal points, and they may not necessarily even be in fixed or geometrically predictable places. If you bolted a tuning lug onto one end of a xylophone bar it would vibrate different in different places and embuggerificate the pitch and sound.
Then you tune the heads, possibly to a different pitch to whatever pitch which the cluttered shell may or may not now produce.
Then you possibly have different tensions on top and bottom heads, and you cause compressive and expansive forces to the shell, and by now it is virtually impossible to clearly identify a single pure pitch coming from the shell, and you can only identify nodal points where there is a pure and sustained pitch.
Furthermore the heads themselves have 2 fantastically complex modes of vibration, Circular and Diametric, and few of these are likely to be harmonious with any semblance of pitch the drum might still have. |
Marcus de Mowbray
www.330studios.co.uk/marcus |
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Prog
Advanced Contributer
United Kingdom
21169 Posts |
Posted - 14/08/2012 : 17:10:44
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| I've gone back to a drilled bass drum and mounted tom. It's easy to mount everything and makes bugger all difference to the sound that I can discern. |
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benjisonfire
Advanced Contributer
United Kingdom
4837 Posts |
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lee haydn
Advanced Contributer
United Kingdom
2033 Posts |
Posted - 15/08/2012 : 02:00:03
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quote:
Originally posted by Prog
I've gone back to a drilled bass drum and mounted tom. It's easy to mount everything and makes bugger all difference to the sound that I can discern.
My Ludwigs got a 1" post that intrudes into the shell, and,, if you order new from the factory, you can specify that you want shell mounted toms and the "dissapearing" spurs, + mini or the larger lugs, if i had been buying new, i would have had my tom shell mounted, this "vibraband"/Rimms is just plain ugly to me, and i had to buy a new 13" rims PR case, in my head, i'm not far off removing the tom holder off the vibraband and getting my cordless drill out the shed, well, i did it to my DW 24" bass drum when i fitted a Ludwig style rail tom holder and bass drum mounted cymbal holder, i don't understand eq's and hate the term "virgin" (when there's at least 49 holes in the bass drum), i like the "old school" look and sound,, |
Ludwig Maple Classic (Green Sparkle) + L400
Sabian HH and Paiste Stanbul vintage
Pro' Racket |
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Bewdy
Advanced Contributer
United Kingdom
818 Posts |
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Captain Bubble
Advanced Contributer
United Kingdom
14630 Posts |
Posted - 15/08/2012 : 09:10:34
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quote:
Originally posted by Bewdy
quote:
Originally posted by benjisonfire
i like them really dead anyway... resonance isnt my friend...
perhaps... but your taste might change with time and the thing with a nice resonant drum is that you can always dial it back, where as you can't ever make a dead drum sing.
That's my approach: start with The Max, and cut down as needed. Some venues are really dead and a lively, bouncy sounding kit is needed. |
Marcus de Mowbray
www.330studios.co.uk/marcus |
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PhilR
Advanced Contributer
United Kingdom
2030 Posts |
Posted - 15/08/2012 : 09:48:52
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I went from a suspension mounted floor tom to shell mounted legs. Noticed the difference straight away. I went from THOOOOoooom to THOD. Bought some Pearl suspension feet and that sorted it right out.
Same with my rack tom. I went through a phase of using my 14" tom as a rack and had it in a snare stand that killed it dead. Eventually returned to a 12" in a suspension mount. Much happier now! |
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Captain Bubble
Advanced Contributer
United Kingdom
14630 Posts |
Posted - 15/08/2012 : 09:55:29
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| ^ Snare stands do work reasonably well as isolators, but you must not tighten the basket any more than absolute minimum to keep the drum in place. |
Marcus de Mowbray
www.330studios.co.uk/marcus |
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Mark W
Advanced Contributer
United Kingdom
1124 Posts |
Posted - 15/08/2012 : 09:57:25
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Hi all
My approach is practical for me.
Having a drilled bass drum and a Tom post means I can set up in seconds with my Toms in the exact place I want them with no fussing about attaching them to cymbal stands. In the past I had times when failing this balancing act meant that neither the cymbals nor the Toms were optimally placed.
And as previously mentioned, Tom placement when working with some of the isolation mounts out there is a trial and error process.
Bearing in mind that my playing is done in pubs & not in recording studios, I also hold the opinion that the moment someone fits a 2 ply skin, an Emad or places so much as a tea towel in their bass drum, then any arguments they may make about superior resonance etc are null and void. I agree with the Captain and others who have pointed out that starting from the best possible point allows you to dampen as required, I'm aiming my comments more at the people who bang on about these things only to either not tune them correctly macDB7 described or to smother the drums in gaffa anyway. I once backed out of a discussion on another forum in which someone was saying how important it was to spend £800 on a bass drum to get the right sound. He showed a picture of his kit and there was literally a duvet in his bass drum. I'm not doubting that it sounded great mic'd up, just that it had more to do with the mic and duvet than the £800 drum.
Cheers
Mark W |
Once I've hit it, it stays hit.
http://www.theenzymes.co.uk |
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Johnny
Advanced Contributer
United Kingdom
5285 Posts |
Posted - 16/08/2012 : 10:38:29
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quote:
Originally posted by Bewdy
One of the key reasons I'm upgrading my kit is to get away from drilled tom mounts on my Yamaha kit. As far as I can tell, the drilled mounts just kill the resonance of the drum dead. When I hold the toms they have a nice resonant ring, as soon as I mount them they choke up.
FWIW I have a pre-YESS 9000 kit and there is a difference in resonance depending how far along the hex rod I mount the drums. Putting them right up at the resin ball end gives a shorter sound than if I slide them down a bit. Might be worth a try before you spend cash... |
www.bulletandkitch.co.uk |
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Bewdy
Advanced Contributer
United Kingdom
818 Posts |
Posted - 16/08/2012 : 12:52:44
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quote:
Originally posted by Johnny
quote:
Originally posted by Bewdy
One of the key reasons I'm upgrading my kit is to get away from drilled tom mounts on my Yamaha kit. As far as I can tell, the drilled mounts just kill the resonance of the drum dead. When I hold the toms they have a nice resonant ring, as soon as I mount them they choke up.
FWIW I have a pre-YESS 9000 kit and there is a difference in resonance depending how far along the hex rod I mount the drums. Putting them right up at the resin ball end gives a shorter sound than if I slide them down a bit. Might be worth a try before you spend cash...
Thanks for the suggestion, but I'm buying a new kit for a number of other reasons also. I'm wanting smaller size BD and Toms, as I prefer a lower playing position now, and with my power toms, unless I have them another inch or so up from the bass drum there isn't space to have them mounted further down the tom arm. I'm also wanting to incorporate a 10" tom into my setup, and having looked everywhere for a powerV one in black, it seems that it would just be easier to buy a new kit. Whoopee!!!  |
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